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Heather O'Brien's avatar

Interesting episode. It's difficult for me to comment too much because I have a different take on the last few years. And the subsequent dumbing down of all things, not just humor (to your guest's point) - not wanting to step on feet - just looking at entertainment (and other things) from 50K feet is one of the great casualties of situation. I try to keep those things to myself. Thus, it's a challenge to do a proper review. But what I do see is the natural ease with which you handled doing this new venture (podcasting). I think you're a natural. That's tough for a writer. You still need to write and produce, but your audience really looks forward to that weekly show. Not an easy schedule for you.

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Jody J. Sperling's avatar

I just saw a film you might like. 2016. NICE GUYS with Ryan Gosling and Russell Crowe. Hardboiled detective caper with absurdity and humor. It felt so antiHollywood, in all the best ways.

As for the comic book conversation, until you are willing to watch Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 1, 2 and Thor Ragnarok, I think we can't fully have the conversation about smart films post writers' strike.

So here's what we'll do: We'll have a day on the #Writers Book Fair Tour where we put the Guardians films on a TV and have a bunch of writers watch and argue. Smart, dumb, clever, pandering?

(Now, let me argue myself. By the time Avengers Infinity War and End Game came out there was too much attention put into PC. The intentional all-woman fights were jarring and took me out of the story. The racial focus did the same as did the sexual identity politics. Soon, it feels, there will also be some washed out version of all-religious acceptance that will celebrate none. I hate that trend and I hope it stops, though it won't.)

Thanks for the kind words about the pod. Very much appreciated.

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Corey Smith's avatar

1) Nice Guys is hilarious. I forgot about that movie.

2) Your parenthetical paragraph is one reason I rarely watch TV anymore. The other reason is books are better. I watch movies with my daughter on the weekends, but otherwise, I read, which seems like something I used to do because I've been so busy lately.

3) Have you the paperbacks for 9 Lives yet?

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Jody J. Sperling's avatar

Nice Guys gave me hope that there are people out there who will enjoy my books. 9 Lives is very much like that film, and I'm shocked I'd never seen it before last night.

Yes! The paperback is out. You can grab one with this link cheaper than anywhere else, and I'll send it signed this very day (or whenever you order it.)

https://jody-j-sperlings-bookshop.myshopify.com/cart/44556701958417:1?channel=buy_button

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Corey Smith's avatar

I'll save this link. It'll be a few weeks before I can purchase anything other than necessities. I'm having that kind of month. But good things are happening, so I shall be laughing about this penny-pinching moment around this time next month. I hope. I'm very excited the read your book(s).

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Jody J. Sperling's avatar

I hear you, man! This past year+ I've been dismantling all my savings to live the life of the full-time author, and seeing my nest egg disappear is terrifying, but like you, I believe one day soon, I'll look back at this moment of financial terror and laugh in the grand scheme of what it paved the way for.

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Heather O'Brien's avatar

I'm willing to do this, as long as you realize that I am just not into comic books. Not in the least. It's just not my thing. I like epics and the bigness of sweeping drama - sans hero or space costumes.

In listening to the podcast, the one thing I can say would bridge genre and time ... is, simply, "story." It's not that the actual story set out isn't interesting. It was. I'm just not interested in superheroes. And because I see film these days as largely "surface level" bunk, the inherent enjoyment of a film is not there for me. If feels, at 50K feet, like an overall slapstick routine most of the time. Just as your guest discussed about not wanting to offend (I'm summarizing) in the wake of the "great tragedy," it's like real humor, real emotions, real loss, real redemption - they're all external and not internal. We live out loud these days, and no one dares dive deep because it could offend people.

Archie Bunker would be canceled in this day and age. The wrestling with who we are individually - vs. who we are collectively - just isn't explored like it used to be. "Morality plays" of the past have been replaced with shaming and cultural eggshell-walking. Even comics like Jerry Seinfeld have said it's really difficult for folks like him because everyone's so sensitive. It's bigger than comic books. But comic books - good or bad or indifferent - sort of illustrate what I'm saying. We're into the "universe" and where "mankind" fits in ... but our individualism is frowned on. What the Great Whoever deems offensive is yanked from the screen. Look at Song of the South, for Pete's sake. I loved Uncle Remus. He was a beautiful character. Kind. Wise. But it's BANNED.

You can't look at society honestly and say this isn't true. New material fits a certain agenda. Most anything else is a "remake" - despite all the wonderful stories being written. Mostly, dare I say, by indies...because publishing houses want that formula they've decided "people want." In the mean time, I struggle for recent offerings that sound interesting and find myself, as I do in film, reaching into the past for a storyline that interests me.

I have no problem with watching the Guardians with a bunch of writers. I just don't find that enjoyable on the main. I don't find 99.9% of the output from Hollywood enjoyable anymore. And I'm not alone. There wouldn't be "indie film" if a balance of projects spanning all the genres were greenlit. Same with music. Same with books. There are cookie-cutting, social engineering priorities in the mainstream. It's just fact.

And - unpopular opinion, here - I find this new trend of "all girl/all women" heroes to be not only boring, but B.S.

I could go on and on, but in the end, we just see this differently. LOL And that's fine. I'm just really not into Fantasy, Sci-Fi, or comic books. I think there are missed opportunities in what passes for today's entertainment biz. And I think it's because there is a narrow cache of "approved" topics and writers (in Hollywood) and that's all we'll see outside of the indie market.

Interesting, your guest spoke about the "long" stories. We see that in Amazon Prime, Hulu, HBO, Showtime, and the like. He's right. People want the long story. And yet, I struggle to find my audience...and perhaps some of it isn't just my poor marketing, but the fact that what I like to write (what I like to read) just doesn't fit into today's culture. Maybe I'm writing for myself. I don't know. I just know what I like. At 57, I've liked E.T., most of the original nine Star Wars films, Close Encounters, Star Trek (original, tv) etc. But that doesn't mean I'm a big SciFi fan. I just love a moving story that dives deep, not expands into the universe. I prefer dramas, epic love stories, etc. Seems today we go far into the past (Bridgerton) or way into the galaxy.

I'll watch Nice Guys. I'll let you know in DM what I think about it.

P.S. Harry Potter series? LOVED it. But was it because of the magic...or in spite of it? I think Rowling did a brilliant job, but I also would bring the two things to the forefront that I found mind-blowing. The two things that were at the forefront of my enjoyment. First, her willingness to kill off a main character and still move forward, essentially redefining the story in that moment to a bigger thing. Second, the [SPOILER ALERT] whittling down (to me) of it being about love, in the end. Specifically, Snape's love for Lily. THAT is good storytelling. But all the characters were unique and had heart. I don't care what setting that would be in. It was transformative.

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Jody J. Sperling's avatar

I see a great deal of complexity in this conversation and its implications even outside film, book and music. There was a need for adjustment. Using race, gender, religion or sexual orientation as a punchline is terribly lazy. Shows like HOME IMPROVEMENT were guilty of this, and lacked depth because of it.

In many ways, I am a victim of historical insensitivity. I grew up in a world that said men drive cars, use power tools, know directions, have no emotions, and hate cuddling.

I am the polar opposite of the stereotype about men.

Moreover, my mom and sister are gay, so I grew up around homosexuality and heard my friends use that word as a damaging label. In ways, I participated in those behaviors, trying to be "one of the guys," or to avoid being singled out.

So I'm glad the movement is toward recognizing the equality between men, women and people of all backgrounds. I'm glad there's more room now for feminine men like me and masculine women like my wife, Ashley.

I'm happy there are stories that explore these themes.

AND…

I feel cheated that in many circles, especially among the literary and arts community, you can be cancelled for a joke in poor taste, or even a funny joke that happens to offend a person. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. Own voices robs people of exploring the world effectively. Diversity for diversity's sake reflects back to us a false story.

It is my belief that while I am a "feminine male" there is something inherently masculine in being a male that wholly separates my experience of the world from a woman, even a "masculine female" like my wife.

I suppose I could get in trouble for sharing this, but I believe men cultivate and women birth, and that that form of expression cannot be changed, manipulated, surgically removed (or added), or in any way altered.

The end product may appear similar, even almost identical, but the path through the process is nothing alike and so the spirit a thing is imbued with is imprinted by its created energy. Anyway, back to my novel deadline!

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Heather O'Brien's avatar

This has officially gone from a Substack debate to one in which I would need to talk to you - while I sip Scotch - and we say "the things" that might not bode well in print.

I am a strong-willed, arguably intelligent (or not?), female that can run roughshod over most anyone. Male or female. However, I also believe in gender roles. Big time. I believe my husband is the head of the household, ultimately. I also get very frustrated when I feel I have to wear the proverbial pants in the family because he's being "passive" - which drives me nuts. But at the end of the day, I respect him, I will debate but be on his side, and I will honor him. Even if we have to wrestle it out personally, I'll always stand by him publicly.

I don't, personally, see you as a "feminine male." I just see that your home structure is one that works for your life. I don't have a problem with any of that. In fact, what folks do in their lives doesn't really spill into my life. It's none of my business.

What IS my business is that I am inherently viewed, these days, in a certain light that is unflattering because of external things beyond my control, that I am stifled and unable to express myself without someone, somewhere "pearl clutching."

I'll go back to Archie Bunker. One of the things that made people love (or love to hate) him was everything that wouldn't be "allowed" today.

But I say? SO WHAT. I don't care what anyone has to say about anything. They're free to do it. Even if *I* think they're wrong or insensitive. Even if the ears hearing it are taking it wrong or out of context. Or if THEY'RE wrong, but current culture is on their "side." Even if I'm seen as a bitch or whatever else. The fundamental right of someone to say something - or to believe a certain way - should not impact anyone else. Don't like what I say? Scroll, baby, scroll. And I'll do the same. But the reality is, everything "everyone else" does is somehow everyone else's business. Including Hollywood's portrayal of, or burying of, certain folks. People have gone down the rabbit hole, feeling like "some" things/people/beliefs are okay and all else are to be gotten rid of and quite forcefully, sometimes. THUS...the narrow gang plank so many walk just to end up in the ocean with sharks.

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Jody J. Sperling's avatar

I applauded this line: "Don't like what I say? Scroll, baby, scroll. And I'll do the same."

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Heather O'Brien's avatar

You know that wasn't directed at you, though, right? LOL

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Corey Smith's avatar

Your last paragraph made me think of Voltaire’s Candide and this line: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

I don't disapprove of what you say, though. On the contrary, I advocate for it. My daughter recently had an issue at school because the boys were telling “your momma” jokes, which I cannot believe still exist. None of the jokes were directed at her. She overheard them. I explained to her nobody was talking about her mother. But even if they were, I wanted her to understand those jokes are empty words and only have power when you give the boys saying them a reaction.

I often speak with her about not getting offended by what others say. Her mother is the opposite of me and is offended easily. She uses double-speak and lengthy politically correct language. I tell my daughter to be direct when she speaks, within reason, of course. I'll spare you my recalling the obvious caveats I use.

This is all a long-winded way to say, I hope to teach my daughter well enough that she doesn't let others’ words, actions, and beliefs, especially when not pertaining to or involving her in any way, disrupt her emotions.

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Heather O'Brien's avatar

I agree with you. However seen as "bad taste" or other common ways we address those "your momma" jokes and the like, some of that is kids learning how far they can take things. If their attitudes ultimately reflect those silly things, society (real society, not the self-appointed thought or comment patrol) has a way of correcting such things.

Learning to stand up for what's right (e.g., helping the little guy being beat up by the bigger guy) is a good thing. But nosing into things that aren't our business (someone says something someone else hears that they think is "wrong-think") is not. Voltaire had it spot on. And let's be honest, pulling it back to my loose example of Archie Bunker: without Archie, we wouldn't be confronted with the absurdity that is hollow, cruel, ignorance in the safety of our own homes, where we can see for ourselves how wrong it is. And even if some folks don't get that (or if they disagree), it's still there as a mechanism.

The reality is, all of us have our "things." We all have great love and a sense of right and wrong, and we also all have the crappy sides to our personalities where bias lives. For me, I'm okay with that. I'm also okay with the fact that others don't believe as I do. Should we find no middle ground to come together? Well, that's unfortunate. I believe there is far more that draws us together than the things that tear us apart. Difference is, these days, the latter is being amplified. Cooler heads need to prevail.

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Corey Smith's avatar

I want to dive into this conversation but don't even know where to begin. There’s so much to unpack.

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Craig Crawford's avatar

I'm not a big Faulkner fan but I thought that was the coolest thing ever when I discovered it. I like doing crossovers in my writing because of it! I have two short stories that are ending up as extended crossovers into my Project Threshold serial--decided those two shorts were good story bases for my teams. I have that fantasy novel I told you about, Morana's Blades, that has several novels that intersect characters from other stories. It's such a cool tool and extra wow factor for readers.

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Craig Crawford's avatar

Talking about recurring characters--growing up I read Faulkner (for school, not necessarily choice :)) but one of the things I really liked Faulkner for was that he created his own county Pattawattamie and he had characters from one story showing up in other stories. It was almost like a literary fantasy world...just without the good stuff like magic and dragons ;)

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Jody J. Sperling's avatar

I didn't know Faulkner did that, but I love that he did! King does it as well, and Roberto Bolaño too. I'm quite fond of it.

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Joe Radke's avatar

Appreciate the kind words. Hopefully someone reaches out to Shawn and will not get the story out there. We have had conversations, about the “new” version of TRBM is similar to what the intentions of Cre8Collab8 ‘brand’ was. Shawn has a very artistic mindset.

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